Jan 12


I am woman, see me wax

by Terry 12 January 2006


From yesterday’s Dear Carolyn column in the Spokesman-Review:

Carolyn: My wife and I have been happily married for four years. However, she has practically stopped shaving her legs. She has never been that crazy about it, but she used to do it anyway. Since we were married, she has gradually cut down and has now stopped totally. The issue has come up, but she says she shaves only when she wants to, and at the moment she does not. Obviously this is not going to break our marriage, but it has started affecting my sexual desire as I am increasingly turned off by her legs. Please help! – Worried in South Carolina

Carolyn’s response suggests strategies from pretending they are stranded on a deserted island, to giving her day spa gift certificates for waxing, to the husband shaving her legs himself. Unfortuntely, what she does not suggest is examining the root of his prejudices.

This reminds me of a discussion I had with my daugher Meredith when she was about 10. She wanted to know why women are expected to shave their legs when men aren’t. I replied that the goal was to make the sexes as different as possible. Then she asked the killer question:

Why are women supposed to be the ones to make themselves different?

Why indeed? I had no answer then and I have no answer now.

It’s not just shaving but fashion as well. Historically, women’s clothing has been designed to make them appear “not male,” from corsets and bustles to makeup and push-up bras, all at the expense of comfort and in the case of corsets, health. Wasp waists and thrusting breasts are as different from male–and natural humanity–as is possible, thus making them the ideal shape of women. Likewise high heels which change the center of gravity and manner of walking; tiny mincing steps is seen as preferable to the confident stride of a man.

The current popularity of the Brazilian Wax is another case in point; I’ve seen no standards for the styling of male pubic hair, but women are expected to rip theirs out by the roots until they look like barely pubescent girls. Some middle eastern women go so far as to wax their arms, believing all body hair to be unfeminine. It’s all designed to make women The Other.

A lot of women have internalized these standards until we believe them to be naturally ordained. When I was in college, my friends and I, after some bad relationships, decided to be celibate for awhile. Our first step towards assuring that we’d stick with the pledge was to stop shaving our legs. We believed that hairy legs would keep us too ashamed to take our jeans off. (None of us considered letting our underarm hair grow, however, or forsaking makeup. That would just have been going too far.) One by one we fell away from the shaving ban as we met guys to whom we were attracted. It was unthinkable that we might consider intimacy while possessing body hair. We didn’t consider the why of that. The only women who chose not to shave were hippies, lesbians and “radical feminists,” all terribly threatening options that we didn’t want to be mistaken for. We wanted to be strong independent women who made their own choices, but we wanted to be pretty and feminine too. To be feminine, we had to make ourselves noticibly different from men. It was one societal pressure we didn’t question.

Is homophobia at the root of this pressure to be “unmale?” If men are so threatened by their attraction to a body that shares certain characteristics with their own, why don’t they modifiy their bodies to make them unlike women? Why is it up to us to draw the line of demarcation?

Shaving is a personal decision, the same as wearing–or not wearing–makeup. I sometimes shave my legs, but that’s for my own comfort, not because I feel I need to to be attractive. I’m acceptable just the way I am.

Tagged:

59 Comments

59 Responses to “I am woman, see me wax”

  1. feithy on January 12th, 2006 9:57 am

    I don’t shave at all in the winter. Why should I? In summer, I love the feel of smooth, moisturized legs. Emphasis on *I love*. My partner is happy with whatever I choose to do with my body hair.

    I liked your question about homophobia. It’s a good one. Hairy = male, therefore women should not be hairy. Except mammals=hairy, dudes. If you’re looking for hairless try fish instead. ;)

    Feith  (Quote)

  2. Lynn on January 12th, 2006 7:30 pm

    Women as The Other. Simone de Beauvoir wrote a whole book on that, and she would probably agree with everything you said. *sigh* Unfortunately, there is no shaving ban for me. It’s shorts every day, so I can’t be seen with hairy legs. I shave every day, dammit. PITA, but my conditioning is such I wouldn’t consider not doing it. I know it’s a choice and I know I do it because I feel I have to to be normal. I haven’t yet seen a woman with hairy legs in Hawaii. I don’t want to be the first. :)

    My big rebellion is not putting on makeup. I used to wear it every day when I was younger, especially when going somewhere. Now, depends on how I feel about it that day. My husband doesn’t care one way or the other, though I imagine he wouldn’t want to be seen at the beach with a hairy-legged woman. ;)  (Quote)

  3. Terry on January 13th, 2006 8:16 am

    It’s also been suggested that the pressure for hairlessness is a youth fixation – attempting to return to a pre-puberty, and thus less threatening, state. I’m pondering that one.  (Quote)

  4. Feministe » Carnival of the Feminists 7 on January 17th, 2006 10:46 pm
  5. lucky on January 18th, 2006 5:25 am

    Yeah, I always heard that too, that women are requested to shave so as to make their bodies as much like prepubescent children as possible… kind of a deep, subconscious pedophile fixation on the part of men. Both explanations make sense to me which is why I don’t shave anything.  (Quote)

  6. Mildred Morgan on January 18th, 2006 6:58 am

    My husband, as darling as he is, does occaisonally comment on the lush abundance of my leg hair. At which point I offer to shave my legs if he’ll shave his butt.

    “Why are women the ones that have to change?”

    There’s a comment that I find both uplifting and heart-breaking at the same time.  (Quote)

  7. Luci on January 18th, 2006 8:25 am

    “Why are women supposed to be the ones to make themselves different?”

    The killer question, indeed.  (Quote)

  8. human on January 18th, 2006 8:58 am

    “At which point I offer to shave my legs if he’ll shave his butt.”

    A youth pastor I was acquainted with back in my Christian days told his chargest a story about his best friend’s wedding. Best Friend was worried that his wife would find out he had a hairy butt. So he asked Youth Pastor to shave it for him just before the wedding. And he did.

    The two of them did not address the question of whether this was a one-time arrangement or something recurring.  (Quote)

  9. Anna on January 18th, 2006 9:07 am

    Some very good questions… and I’d like to preface this by saying that I hate shaving my legs too, so this isn’t an apology for this stupid craze about removing female body hair… but I’d be interested in what you suggest men could do to make themselves look different. Men are generally more hairy than women; hairy is therefore associated with masculinity; so to emphasise femininity women are expected to appear without body hair. However, what could men do in turn to emphasise their masculinity in this respect? They can’t exactly start growing more body hair on purpose (and many young boys go through periods of worry when their body hair seems reluctant to sprout when their friends are already sporting stubble).

    Men are also under pressure to modify their bodies to appear more masculine: think of the ridicule that men with unusual amounts of fat on their chest receive for having “woman breasts”, and they are expected to work out and look muscular.

    - I’m not in any way suggesting that the pressure on women and men to change their bodies to suit stereotypes is anywhere near proportional. I am just genuinely curious what you think men could be expected to do to look more masculine, should we wish to pursue that line (and I don’t think shaving butts falls into this category, although I do *love* the retort!)  (Quote)

  10. Terry on January 18th, 2006 9:57 am

    Anna, thanks so much for commenting! You raise some fascinating questions. I think the pressure men are under to not appear feminine is because female carries the cultural context of weakness and passivity, and the “purpose” of being used sexually. I tend to think that trying to appear more masculine is geared toward gaining the respect and admiration of other men, not women. They strive to convey strength, rather than weakness. I even see that in bodybuilding, both male and female. Male musculature conveys strength in that case, and strength is admirable, despite the idealized absense of body hair for both genders in the field.

    I’m going to give this a lot more thought, maybe even a full post on it. Thank you!  (Quote)

  11. Tlaloc on January 18th, 2006 10:54 am

    “Why are women the ones that have to change?”

    Uh guys change themselves a lot too. You may have noticed that right next to the “women’s” razors are “men’s” razors. Men who let their facial hair grow completely unkempt are also regarded as unattractive in general. I think you are reading WAY too much into this.

    If you personally don’t like to shave your legs that’s fine, it’s your body and choice. You could also choose not to wear any deoderant. Still your choice, but it’s a choice that others may find unattractive. Not because it is a patriarchy imperative but because it is a cultural norm.  (Quote)

  12. Chet on January 18th, 2006 11:03 am

    Look, no one is under any obligation to find another person sexually attractive. No one’s going to make you shave your legs, but its a turn-off for a very large number of people. Like most things, you decide whether the trade-off is worth it, or not. I mean I guess it just depends on how bad you want to have sex with another human being.

    If his wife doesn’t want to take the effort to conform to what he find sexually desirable, he’s under no obligation to make it happen anyway. She needs to decide whether being found attractive by him is something that is important to her, or not. And then he needs to decide whether or not he’s interested in a partner that would so cavalierly discount his preferences and opinions and yet continue to demand performance.

    Moreover it’s astoundingly sexist to imply that all men are secret closet pedophiles.

    It’s ridiculious to assert that woman are the only ones under pressure to conform to a standard. Let me assure you that the pressure on men is two-fold: not only are men slightly more likely to suffer a body dismorphic disorder as a result of social pressures, but there’s absolutely no social acceptance of men with these problems. Society ridicules men who refuse to fit rigid stereotypes of male fashion, while female iconoclasts are celebrated.

    Men shave stuff they don’t want to shave, too; almost always as a concession to their parters, current or future. It’s amazing how a community of women, whose intelligence is so prominent in their writing, could so completely miss the asthetic point of the “traditional” aspects of female fashion. It’s not about men being “threatened” by women with bold strides or mustaches. It’s about a woman’s partner liking the way a woman’s calves are reshaped by heels, or the feel of a shaved leg. People who don’t care about being attractive to other people don’t have to do these things. But they have no right to complain, then, when society informs them that they’re not attractive. Individuals have the right to determine what they find attractive and what they do not.  (Quote)

  13. super ju on January 18th, 2006 11:12 am

    Well, tlaloc, I think you are not quite right.

    For example, the TV show Lost (which, I admit is a guilty pleasure of mine)

    Check out the guys and gals here:
    http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/

    The men? All deliciously scruffy and unshaven. After all, they are on deserted island, no? Yet unkempt is still sexy.

    The women? Somehow, a shipment of “Lady Bic” razors must have been in the cargo hold because all of them manage to keep thier legs smooth and silky. Also eyebrows artfully tweezed. And bikini lines.

    Why? Because the general public would be too “grossed out” by leg hair. It would intrude on the fantasy in a way that male facial hair never does.

    A “choice” to keep your legs unshaven means a “choice” to be verbally harrased on the street when wearing shorts. Do unshaven men get yelled at by strangers for being “yeti”? I think not.  (Quote)

  14. piny on January 18th, 2006 2:00 pm

    I’ve shaved my legs as a woman and I’ve shaved my face as a man. The two chores aren’t comparable. The latter takes less than ten minutes–really, more like five. And men _can_ grow beards, which they only have to trim every week or so–almost like the hair on your head. Most men can even go unshaven for a day or so. They’re also allowed to grow their back hair, butt hair, belly hair, armpit hair, chest hair, knuckle hair, untrimmed pubic hair, and untrimmed eyebrow hair. Women aren’t supposed to have any of that, even though most of them do. Finally, most women do have some kind of facial hair–overlip fuzz, chin fuzz, or throat fuzz–which they aren’t allowed to show any sign of. The grooming requirements definitely aren’t parallel; it’s like stacking up Just for Men gray concealer and a fingerful of pomade against the raft of shampoos, conditioners, preconditioners, dyes, post-dye conditioners, touchups, highlights, mousses, gels, and other products that are shoved at women.  (Quote)

  15. Tlaloc on January 18th, 2006 2:33 pm

    “The men? All deliciously scruffy and unshaven. After all, they are on deserted island, no? Yet unkempt is still sexy.”

    Sure a slightly scruffy George Clooney look can be attractive. But give the guys six months to grow out some Iranian mullah style beards. Not. So. Hot.

    “A “choice” to keep your legs unshaven means a “choice” to be verbally harrased on the street when wearing shorts.”

    Look I have a great deal of sympathy for anyone ANYONE who gets made fun of in public by assholes. That sucks. My wife has a slight weight problem and a few months ago some guy yelled out something at her that just devastated her. If I’d been there at the time I probably would have had a typically male reaction and beaten the shit out of him (or at least tried my best). It really sucks. Some people are assholes as above.

    Yet I can’t exactly start ranting about life being unfair just because the modern standard of beauty values thin over voluptuous. Sure we might talk about whether the standard of thinness that is held up is *impossibly* thin and that’s a reasonable question, but the very fact that thin is attractive by and large is simply a cultural norm.  (Quote)

  16. Tlaloc on January 18th, 2006 2:36 pm

    “The latter takes less than ten minutes–really, more like five.”

    Jesus, I want your razor. Mine takes closer to half an hour to an hour if I want something that doesn’t resemble and feel like sandpaper. I suspect that folicle density and thickness may result in a great deal of variation. Also frequency of shaving of course.

    “They’re also allowed to grow their back hair, butt hair, belly hair, armpit hair, chest hair, knuckle hair, untrimmed pubic hair, and untrimmed eyebrow hair.”

    I’m guessing you’ve never been married. Trust me not all guys are *allowed* to grow whatever they want wherever they want to be considered attractive to their partners.  (Quote)

  17. super ju on January 18th, 2006 2:46 pm

    It’s the “simply a cultural norm” part that is in question.

    Why is it a cultural norm? What motivates us to think it is sexy for women to be hairless?

    And some of the Iranian ladies love the beards, I am sure.

    I know that not all men who like the shaved leg are assholes. All I’m asking is that we consider ‘why’ the cultural norm is so hairless, and what do we, as women, give up when we spend so much time grooming ourselves in order to fit in. Yes, men must groom to fit in too – bathing and deoderizing, etc. But any stroll through a drugstore will give you an idea of the inequity in gender expectations for personal appearance modification, ie: the home wax kit.  (Quote)

  18. Chet on January 18th, 2006 2:54 pm

    It takes my wife less than half the time to shave what she shaves as it does me just to shave my whiskers. And that’s not even all my face – just the parts where I don’t want beard. We’re talking less than maybe 10 in^2, compared to the maybe 200 in^2 my wife does.

    Nobody who thinks that it’s quicker for a man to shave actually has a beard to shave.

    But you all are asking the wrong questions. The question is not “why are men all pedophiles”, but rather “what’s wrong with a person making the effort to do something they don’t enjoy to show their partner that they care about them?” Honestly. Seems pretty simple to me.  (Quote)

  19. piny on January 18th, 2006 4:01 pm

    Sure a slightly scruffy George Clooney look can be attractive. But give the guys six months to grow out some Iranian mullah style beards. Not. So. Hot.

    And you’re still talking about weekly trims rather than daily shaving. A beard is an option for a man, and it’s much less maintanence than regularly shaved legs. Not the same thing.

    Jesus, I want your razor. Mine takes closer to half an hour to an hour if I want something that doesn’t resemble and feel like sandpaper. I suspect that folicle density and thickness may result in a great deal of variation. Also frequency of shaving of course.

    An hour. To shave your face? Are you sure about that? Are you using a razor or a butterknife? That isn’t explained by “density,” either, since it doesn’t take me half an hour to shave both my armpits.

    Look I have a great deal of sympathy for anyone ANYONE who gets made fun of in public by assholes. That sucks. My wife has a slight weight problem and a few months ago some guy yelled out something at her that just devastated her. If I’d been there at the time I probably would have had a typically male reaction and beaten the shit out of him (or at least tried my best). It really sucks. Some people are assholes as above.

    Sympathy isn’t the point, and it’s not really worth much without any understanding of what motivates those “assholes” to attack the people they attack. You can love every woman, but you’re not gonna be much use against those “assholes” unless you understand that their abuse is neither equal-opportunity nor occurring in a vaccuum.

    I’m guessing you’ve never been married. Trust me not all guys are *allowed* to grow whatever they want wherever they want to be considered attractive to their partners.

    *snort* Yeah, I’ve never had sex with a woman before, or had any reason to make myself attractive to one. Trust me, your ass hair is far less fraught than any given woman’s.

    Nobody who thinks that it’s quicker for a man to shave actually has a beard to shave.

    Au contraire. I have a beard. And it’s quicker by far to take care of than my legs ever were–which doesn’t even take every other hairy area into account.  (Quote)

  20. Burrow on January 18th, 2006 5:49 pm

    Loved the post. I haven’t shaved since I was 16 (anywhere) and in the last 15 years I have met maybe 10 men who’ve cared. (Really when they’re hitting on you they don’t care if your hairy or not, just if you’ll sleep with them to which the answer is a resounding No.)

    I have dated men who grow full beards, seriously if you care about the person what the fuck does it matter if they shave or not? And from what I remember not shaving for up to a week makes very uncomfortable stubble. So you either need to shave daily or not at all. (And I often encourage people towards the latter. My motto: If I wasn’t meant to have hair there then it wouldn’t grow there!

    All you people defending the patriarchal standard of hairless doll like women is just sickening.  (Quote)

  21. Chet on January 19th, 2006 9:03 am

    What’s sickening is defending one kind of sexual preference – hetero or homo – but denying the legitimacy of another.

    Who are any of you to tell someone what they are and are not allowed to find attractive in adult partners of their preffered gender?

    It’s no less legitimate for me as a man, or someone else as a woman, to draft standards of what I prefer sexually in regards to hair than it is for me to have a sexual preference for women, or for another person to have a sexual preference for their own gender. These standards of beauty aren’t cultural, they aren’t a patriarchy – even newborn infants can detect beauty, and prefer faces and bodies that we recognize as attractive.

    How dare so many of you sit in judgement of a legitimate sexual preference, and how dare that man’s wife so carelessly dismiss the preferences of someone she claims to love. (I presume she makes that claim, because they’re married.)

    What this is is the worst kind of sexism that undercuts real feminism. Everything that women do is something men are making them do. Even when women are taking control or being assertive, are they just doing it because they’re being allowed to by “the patriarchy”? How does anything get done – like preserving reproductive freedoms, or recitfying wage inequality – with this kind of academic, navel-gazing nonsense in the way?

    5 states in the Union this year enacted parental “notification” (read: consent) laws for abortion, and you all are concerned about a man who finds smooth legs attractive? Jesus.

    Au contraire. I have a beard.

    Au contrarie. What you have is a peach fuzz that you could probably shave with a washcloth.  (Quote)

  22. piny on January 19th, 2006 10:17 am

    What’s sickening is defending one kind of sexual preference – hetero or homo – but denying the legitimacy of another.

    There’s nothing intrinstically heterosexual about preferring hairless legs on women. That preference is, too, cultural. Hairless legs on women have only been widespread for a few decades, and in some cultures, they’re prohibited.

    There’s also a difference between attraction to a gender and attraction to certain time-consuming beauty rituals. I doubt very much that you’ve ever felt burdened by a lesbian’s sexual preference such that you might consider a sex change. Women, on the other hand, do feel cultural pressure to shave their legs.

    Au contrarie. What you have is a peach fuzz that you could probably shave with a washcloth.

    Why would you say that, never having met me? I have a beard: thick, coarse dark hair growing all over the lower half of my face. I grow a beard shadow by the end of every day and I look extremely scruffy if I skip shaving for a day.

    I took a totally unscientific shaving poll: I checked the half-hour-to-an-hour shaving time with another friend. He’s got severe cystic acne, and is an extremely hairy guy. He says he can do a slapdash job in ten minutes, and that careful shaving plus prepping with a hot towel takes maybe twenty. So either tlaloc is shaving with a flint knap arrowhead, or he’s full of shit.  (Quote)

  23. piny on January 19th, 2006 10:18 am

    Au contrarie. What you have is a peach fuzz that you could probably shave with a washcloth.

    I get it! You think I’m a woman!  (Quote)

  24. Chet on January 19th, 2006 10:39 am

    There’s nothing intrinstically heterosexual about preferring hairless legs on women. That preference is, too, cultural.

    Sex gender preference can be cultural. The fact remains that even newborn infacts can reliably detect beautiful faces and figures. Beauty can be reliably detected cross-culturally, too; that’s how we’re able to appreciate the classic figures of Greek statuary, or the haunting smile of the Mona Lisa, or the graceful bust of Nephertiti. Concepts of beauty are as much biological as they are cultural; perhaps much more so.

    I doubt very much that you’ve ever felt burdened by a lesbian’s sexual preference such that you might consider a sex change. Women, on the other hand, do feel cultural pressure to shave their legs.

    A pressure that women assure me is not that difficult to deal with. It honestly doesn’t take women all that long to shave, and even if they don’t want to shave, there are other things they can do, like use dipiliatories or hell – wear pants.

    Seriously – nobody has to do it. So you feel some pressure. Cry me a river. Do you think that you’re the only one who feels pressure from society about anything? Being pressured is the price of living in society. You can leave, if you like.

    I have a beard: thick, coarse dark hair growing all over the lower half of my face. I grow a beard shadow by the end of every day and I look extremely scruffy if I skip shaving for a day.

    Then you have hairy legs, too, not the sparse, fine hair associated with women; so your comparison of shaving your face vs shaving your legs is completely meaningless. If your legs look just like your face, yeah. Shaving your legs is going to take longer than your face.

    The comparison, if you missed it the first time, was between a man’s face and a woman’s legs.  (Quote)

  25. safe_words on January 19th, 2006 11:01 am

    I, a woman, shave my legs, armpits, and pubic hair completely. I’m toying with the idea of getting a Brazilian wax. I started shaving my pubic hair because my boyfriend asked me to do it as a one-time thing and I realized that the whole area is a LOT more sensitive to pleasurable sensations without that mat of hair. Also, my boyfriend doesn’t have to deal with getting hair under his tongue when he goes down on me. I like the feel of smooth skin on myself, and like the resulting sexual sensations, so I shave.

    I don’t think shaving my pubic hair makes me look prepubescent – my mons looks very different now than it did when I was a kid, and anybody who looks at my hourglass figure and breasts and thinks I’m prepubescent because I have shaved pubic hair is a moron.

    I’m in favor of changing the aspect of our culture that says a woman who doesn’t shave is gross – men can shave their chests/faces/whatever or not and still be attractive, depending on the viewer’s preferences. That’s how it should be for women’s body hair, too. People shouldn’t give those of us who shave flack anymore than they should give those who don’t shave flack.  (Quote)

  26. piny on January 19th, 2006 11:29 am

    Sex gender preference can be cultural. The fact remains that even newborn infacts can reliably detect beautiful faces and figures. Beauty can be reliably detected cross-culturally, too; that’s how we’re able to appreciate the classic figures of Greek statuary, or the haunting smile of the Mona Lisa, or the graceful bust of Nephertiti. Concepts of beauty are as much biological as they are cultural; perhaps much more so.

    Some are. The preference for hairy legs most definitely is not. Nor is there anything biological about a more elaborate, time-consuming standard of beauty for one gender than for another.

    A pressure that women assure me is not that difficult to deal with. It honestly doesn’t take women all that long to shave, and even if they don’t want to shave, there are other things they can do, like use dipiliatories or hell – wear pants.

    Seriously – nobody has to do it. So you feel some pressure. Cry me a river. Do you think that you’re the only one who feels pressure from society about anything? Being pressured is the price of living in society. You can leave, if you like.

    Some women. Certainly not all women. Some women don’t find the second shift onerous; does that mean that no woman has the right to complain?Depilatories carry their share of problems, too, and aren’t all that much less time-consuming. And a woman’s ability to wear pants is as dependent on cultural pressure as shaving. Pressure is not an equal-opportunity problem. Women feel greater pressure to modify their bodies and adopt elaborate “beauty” rituals in order to conform to a narrow “beauty” standard that has nothing to do with the bodies they actually have. And why leave? Why not work to change things?

    Then you have hairy legs, too, not the sparse, fine hair associated with women; so your comparison of shaving your face vs shaving your legs is completely meaningless. If your legs look just like your face, yeah. Shaving your legs is going to take longer than your face.

    Nope. Think harder. I used to grow hair–and shave–hair on my legs just like a woman, and now I grow–and shave–hair on my legs just like a man. If you’re still stumped, I might be able to draw you a little diagram or something. Just for the record, though, the hair on women’s legs might be slightly thinner and finer than the hair on men’s legs, but it’s not usually “sparse” by any means.  (Quote)

  27. piny on January 19th, 2006 11:33 am

    Heh. That should read, “I used to grow hair–and shave–hair on my legs just like a woman, and now I grow–and shave–hair on my face just like a man.”

    Now you probably will need that diagram.  (Quote)

  28. Chet on January 19th, 2006 1:53 pm

    Nor is there anything biological about a more elaborate, time-consuming standard of beauty for one gender than for another.

    It’s just plain sexism to assert that the different standards of beauty are any more or less elaborate or time-consuming for one gender or another. Walk into Target, and you’ll see that – with one exception – there’s as many of the same kind of products for men as there are for women. Men shave. Men use fragrances – usually, aftershave, deodorant, and cologne, and now body sprays, at least two of those at any one time. Men have as many haircare products as women – hair dyes, different kinds of pomade, gel, spray, etc.

    The only exception is cosmetics, and as a former make-up artist I can tell you that, on average, the majority of women use little more than a combination of concealing base, eyeliner, lip gloss, and a little mascara. Most women have one of those little 4-way pots of eyeshadow but they usually only ever use one of the colors. Takes 20 minutes, and that’s assuming she’s even going to bother. I could generally care less, although I realize most men say that because skilled make-up means you don’t notice it’s there.

    I’m predicting the future, and I see piny telling me that as a woman, she spent hours getting ready to go out; as a man, now, he throws on a grubby t-shirt and some ripped-up jeans and considers himself dressed for the occasion. To head you off: that proves nothing except that you’ve decided that you don’t mind going out in public like a slob. Good for you, I guess. You could have dressed the same way as a woman, I assure you.

    Women feel greater pressure to modify their bodies and adopt elaborate “beauty” rituals in order to conform to a narrow “beauty” standard that has nothing to do with the bodies they actually have.

    Defend this. I would offer that the higher incidence of body dismorphic disorders among men than among women proves quite the opposite; men are under a slightly greater pressure to alter their bodies to conform. And that’s what we would expect, by observation – while elements of society exist that value women’s bodies no matter their shape – you can even find “fat girl” porn – nobody’s lining up for the pudgy guys. There’s no “relief valve” for male-targeted body pressure, like there is for women. There’s a support structure for women with eating disorders; men with the same problems are ridiculed and emasculated.

    Why not work to change things?

    That should read, “I used to grow hair–and shave–hair on my legs just like a woman, and now I grow–and shave–hair on my face just like a man.”

    Even if you’re a post-op transsexual, the hormones aren’t that effective. If it ever took you less long to shave your face than your legs, then either you had really hairy legs, or a really fine beard.

    But the idea that you could start out looking like Jack on “Lost” and get done before Kate is done in the shower is ludicrous. The face is convoluted and bumpy, and requires several passes over each area to shave each whisker against it’s natural grain; the leg is straight up and down. My wife can do one whole leg in the time it takes me to do just my chin and adam’s apple. Any faster and the bathroom sink looks like an abbatoir – fresh razor or no.  (Quote)

  29. Lynn on January 19th, 2006 2:02 pm

    Wow, Terry, didn’t know you’d had so many comments here until I read your post about it. Interesting comments all. Um, as a preening wife (yes, I am shameless) whose husband is right this instant on the set of LOST playing the very small (in the background) part of a medic, I can attest that the casting folks told him not to shave today. He is part of a flashback scene for one of the characters, so I assume it’s Iraq or something, so their shaving thing isn’t just for the guys on the island. :)

    Wish I’d thought to have him ask why the ladies are so nicely shaven. ;)  (Quote)

  30. Lynn on January 19th, 2006 2:03 pm

    Oops, forgot to mention that when one of my husband’s coworkers played the part of a Nigerian soldier, they told him not to shave either. :)  (Quote)

  31. piny on January 19th, 2006 3:14 pm

    It’s just plain sexism to assert that the different standards of beauty are any more or less elaborate or time-consuming for one gender or another. Walk into Target, and you’ll see that – with one exception – there’s as many of the same kind of products for men as there are for women. Men shave. Men use fragrances – usually, aftershave, deodorant, and cologne, and now body sprays, at least two of those at any one time. Men have as many haircare products as women – hair dyes, different kinds of pomade, gel, spray, etc.

    But in general, they don’t use as many. See your words about makeup below:

    The only exception is cosmetics, and as a former make-up artist I can tell you that, on average, the majority of women use little more than a combination of concealing base, eyeliner, lip gloss, and a little mascara. Most women have one of those little 4-way pots of eyeshadow but they usually only ever use one of the colors. Takes 20 minutes, and that’s assuming she’s even going to bother. I could generally care less, although I realize most men say that because skilled make-up means you don’t notice it’s there.

    It’s virtually unheard-of for men to wear any makeup, in any situation. Their faces are fine as they come. How is that parity?

    I’m predicting the future, and I see piny telling me that as a woman, she spent hours getting ready to go out; as a man, now, he throws on a grubby t-shirt and some ripped-up jeans and considers himself dressed for the occasion. To head you off: that proves nothing except that you’ve decided that you don’t mind going out in public like a slob. Good for you, I guess. You could have dressed the same way as a woman, I assure you.

    Sure, and probably been harassed for dressing like a big ol’ dyke. My teenage brother dresses like a slob, and, surprisingly enough, doesn’t take much flak for it. I don’t dress like a slob; I wear clean, well-fitting clothes. I still don’t have to spend anywhere near as much time either grooming or dressing as women do, and neither current grooming rituals nor current clothing are anywhere near as uncomfortable. There’s no such thing as pumps for men.

    Even if you’re a post-op transsexual, the hormones aren’t that effective. If it ever took you less long to shave your face than your legs, then either you had really hairy legs, or a really fine beard.

    Bullshit. Although your reference to “post-op” in the context of hormonal changes is a pretty good indicator that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    This is what a transsexual man’s beard looks like.

    http://www.jamisongreen.com/

    Incidentally, I’ve expanded the poll to cover a few more guys at work and in my family. Their estimates? Between ten and fifteen minutes. Plus, cleanshaven men, like women who regularly shave their legs, don’t generally let things get to Lost-territory, so your analogy is off.  (Quote)

  32. Terry on January 19th, 2006 3:25 pm

    This isn’t getting us anywhere, folks – no one’s opinion is going to be changed. I appreciate your strong feelings on the matter but let’s all pull back to neutral corners let it go. Please.  (Quote)

  33. Chet on January 19th, 2006 3:48 pm

    Sure, and probably been harassed for dressing like a big ol’ dyke.

    Harassed by who? C’mon. What, you’ve never seen a college student?

    There’s no such thing as pumps for men.

    What are you talking about? I assure you, as a costumer, this is definately not the case. Men use concealed heels to make themselves taller, or improve the line of the leg and buttock all the time. Or corsets to improve the line of the torso. And, indeed, cosmetics for men are not unknown. Men apply “tanning cremes” which are really just the same as concealing bases and have been known to use chapstick and lip gloss, too.

    Although your reference to “post-op” in the context of hormonal changes is a pretty good indicator that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    Post-op transsexuals don’t continue hormone treatments? Hey, I’m no expert. If I’ve said something that’s wrong I’d appreciate the correction. I was under the impression that the hormone supplements had to be continued both before and after sex-reassignment surgeries.

    Incidentally, I’ve expanded the poll to cover a few more guys at work and in my family. Their estimates? Between ten and fifteen minutes.

    Still at least twice to three times as long as the women I’ve observed shaving.  (Quote)

  34. piny on January 19th, 2006 4:01 pm

    Harassed by who? C’mon. What, you’ve never seen a college student?

    Somebody’s moving the goalposts….

    College is also an environment where men may go several weeks without either shaving or trimming. It’s an environment where both men and women may attend classes in their pajamas. It’s not typical. What’s your point here?

    And something tells me you haven’t had many interactions with women who actually do dress like men.

    What are you talking about? I assure you, as a costumer, this is definately not the case. Men use concealed heels to make themselves taller, or improve the line of the leg and buttock all the time. Or corsets to improve the line of the torso. And, indeed, cosmetics for men are not unknown. Men apply “tanning cremes” which are really just the same as concealing bases and have been known to use chapstick and lip gloss, too.

    …Costumer? Something tells me there’s some selection bias operating there. The overwhelming majority of men do not wear any kind of makeup, girdles, or lifts (which are nowhere near as damaging or inconvenient as heels). “Have been known” is a concession to that rarity. Chapstick is reaching. What next? Corn Husker’s Lotion is a cosmetic?

    Post-op transsexuals don’t continue hormone treatments? Hey, I’m no expert. If I’ve said something that’s wrong I’d appreciate the correction. I was under the impression that the hormone supplements had to be continued both before and after sex-reassignment surgeries.

    They do have to continue hormone therapy. Post/pre-op status has absolutely nothing to do with the efficacy of hormones, and very little to do with the amount of time spent on hormones, particularly for ftms. The “hormones aren’t that effective” comment as a response to, “I had normal female leg hair before, and I have normal male facial hair now,” was the clearly inaccurate, ignorant bit; the reference to “post-op” was so much support for that read.

    Still at least twice to three times as long as the women I’ve observed shaving.

    …On Ripley’s? Five to seven minutes to shave both legs? I’m gonna put this in the same category as the half-hour-to-an-hour estimate for shaving one’s face. If it’s true, it’s not typical.  (Quote)

  35. piny on January 19th, 2006 4:01 pm

    Whoops. Sorry, Terry. I’ll step back.  (Quote)

  36. Terry on January 19th, 2006 4:05 pm

    Thanks, Piny. I appreciate it a lot.  (Quote)

  37. Sugared Harpy » When you Turn 20 and Never on January 19th, 2006 6:50 pm
  38. kactus on January 20th, 2006 8:58 am

    I find this whole thread fascinating, even the part where people got their gooses all in a gander who’s got it worse in the shaving department. I haven’t shaved my legs in years but I haven’t needed to, either–heart problems equaling poor circulation means I have pretty hairless legs. But even when I did have hair on my legs I only shaved in the summer, and not on a regular basis either. It just doesn’t mean that much to me.

    That being said, I was interested in the earlier post about what changes men have to go through to be more masculine. I’m thinking maybe it’s not physical changes men have to go through but perhaps the accumulation of things outside of themselves to assert their maleness. Money, homes, big trucks, etc. are all status symbols and can be pretty potent signs of power and hence perceived masculinity.  (Quote)

  39. Terry on January 20th, 2006 10:40 am

    You raise a great point, kactus. Men do seem to have their attractiveness rated on other things than physical attributes.  (Quote)

  40. VK on January 22nd, 2006 3:38 pm

    While I agree with pretty much everything you said (and am sitting here being smug because both my armpits and legs are covered with hair and my boyfriend doesn’t give a damn whether I shave or not)
    1) High heels were originally designed and worn by men. Manly men. They were supposed to help keep your feet in stirrups when riding at speed. Women, who were far too delicate to ride with stirrups or to seperate their legs, rode side saddle. Women were not allowed to wear heels, and only really butch men who wanted to show off what a great rider they were would do it off horse back.
    2) Shaping pubic hair on men. I did a course on Archaic Greek Statues a few years back. There was quite a trend ~480BC for star shaped pubic hair (on men only I would assume, women were not considered sexual objects and were kept indoors, fully clothed and only sculpted fully clothed)  (Quote)

  41. Ahistoricality on January 24th, 2006 5:11 pm

    Neither I nor my spouse shave or use makeup. We must be terribly unhappy people.

    VK is wrong about the Greeks, though: the chastity and isolation requirements they imposed on women, and the presence of courtesans as entertainment, clearly shows that Greek men very much considered women sexual beings, and that bothered them as well as exciting them. What they didn’t consider them — which is why they didn’t sculpt them much — is ideal forms worthy of admiration. Again, it’s the “woman as other” thing….  (Quote)

  42. bierce on January 26th, 2006 1:50 pm

    Just a little anecdote: I’ve had various girlfriends who either did or did not shave. I never once insisted that they do so; Probably the result of years of hearing that making such demands would be horribly sexist. That being said, I absolutely prefer shaved legs. I don’t know why exactly, but it turns me on. It’s not something I can consciously control.

    My last serious relationship was with a woman who waxed her legs (and wore lots of short skirts etc) when we started dating and gradually stopped this after we moved in together. Never asked for my preference, just decided she didn’t want to do it anymore and stopped.

    I never said anything about it but it definitely affected how attracted to her I felt. The frequency of sex did drop quite a bit after that.

    I’m just saying it’s possible to keep one’s preferences to oneself in the name of equality and/or political correctness or whatever, but much more difficult to change the things that one finds arousing. And in males, arousal is pretty hard to fake. Ain’t saying it’s right, just saying sometimes that’s how it is.

    The idea that your partner should find you sexually desirable no matter how you look sounds great on paper but doesn’t always work out in real life. Just because somebody loves you and enjoys your company and all those other things does not mean they automatically want to be your red-hot love monkey. It would be nice if inner beauty always prompted physical arousal; Then all those people we know with Great Personalities would never be without a date.

    It didn’t escape my attention that one of the first things that last girlfriend did when we broke up was go out and wax her legs. Next time I saw her out in public she was a wearing a short skirt and had smooth legs. So again, maybe the guy who wrote into the advice columnist in the first place is wondering if what’s really happening is that his wife just doesn’t care that much about being attractive to him anymore. So maybe all this back-and-forth over who has it rougher in the unrealistic-expectations-regarding-appearance category (just to clarify: It’s women!) is missing the point.  (Quote)

  43. Joe on May 24th, 2006 12:59 am

    Why are women supposed to be the ones to make themselves different?

    Supposed to??? Men must go through? Expected to?

    It seems that we are brainwashed and not even know it  (Quote)

  44. Harrietta on June 7th, 2006 3:08 am

    Mildred Morgan, you’re my hero!!!  (Quote)

  45. Dave on August 13th, 2006 11:37 am

    You must be stuck back in the 1970′s – or live out in the sticks – to honestly believe there are no standards for men. After being asked ‘hey why don’t you shave down there?’ by 3 out of 4 sexual partners… going on dates with girls, only to have calls not returned as soon as I am seen without a shirt on at a pool side or beach… the new GQ standard is to look like a pre-pubescent boy with not only shaved legs, but a full on body wax – front, back, legs, ASS (you try waxing your scrotum, lady), and of course the rest of the private region.

    All I can say, is it’s now an even playing field, and you’re lucky that you do not grow hair in as many places as I do! Which entails 97% of my body!

    I don’t want to hear the femmies complaining about this topic any more, because I’m a straight man, I’ve been there, I’ve done that, and there is no forum or socially acceptable channel for me to complain about it. Your only response will be ‘well it serves men right for hundreds of years of prejudice and repression’. Well guess what? I’ve only been around for 25 years and only about 10 of that was I old enough to even know what repression is! Blaming me for ‘hundreds of years’ of problems is the same as blaming me for slavery! I had nothing to do with it!!  (Quote)

  46. Dave on August 13th, 2006 11:45 am

    Let’s take this further, I’m on a rampage. I’m also expected to use gel products in my hair, get blonde flair added to my already blonde hair in a hair salon, fake-n-bake at least 3 times a week, stop lifting weights (it’s ok to have you rmuscles showing as long as they aren’t too big, or else you’re considered a meat head). I’m also expected to hold the door open for women while they are not for me. I’ve met so many women that actually think dating means spending a mans money while he showers her with affection and gets nothing in return mentally. Literally. Search any dating site and you’ll see what I mean. We are just supposed to be the good-looking boy toy who knows how to swing dance and dirty dance in front of you and your girlfriends so we can be shown off. No, please don’t have any opinions or talk about politics, it’s such a turn off! Just be a money making good looking boy toy drone.

    I’m so tired of listening to the femmies complain about how bad they have it and blaming everyone else with a penis. Like someone said above, which was great, he didn’t ask his partner to shave ‘down there’ or the legs when she stopped, but it’s not our fault that we are genetically programmed that guerilla legs are a turn off. I guess it’s fair play that you don’t think my hairy chest is a turn on either. So let’s all just stop shaving and stop complaining about it. Or get a bulk deal on body wax and meet at the local parlor. It’s your choice. You live with it. And stop blaming cultural ‘norms’, and take responsibility for your actions. I am!  (Quote)

  47. Dave on August 13th, 2006 11:59 am

    Why are we masculine? The development of masculinity is not – I repeat NOT – a gentleman’s club. It is a CULTURAL thing, and by being cultural, the impetus for developing masculinity in its current form is both male and FEMALE input. Do you think we would drive a big truck, get big pecks, and buy nice homes, if it didn’t get – excuse my French – make the woman ‘wet’ at the sight of it? This is certainly not all women, but there unfortunately are some mothers who raise their daughters to be beauty queens, to seek out the most culturally macho man available and to marry him for his resources.

    Where are all of the women who are writing on this forum hiding? I don’t see you when I am out. It sounds like I could actually have a normal conversation with any of you and you wouldn’t judge me without at least listening first.

    Anyway back to masculinity. Yes, the truck / house / money are all power symbols for the men. I don’t know the last time I showed a guy my living quarters and said ‘yep Joe, this is one hell of an apartment – check out this fridge!’ or the last time I whipped out a stack of $100 bills and flashed them to the other men sitting at the table. I’ve seen men do these things, but it’s usually when their girlfriend is sitting next to them. It’s a tribe mentality that wouldn’t exist if we were a bunch of homosexual tribemen. It’s the same reason you don’t see a lot of macho homosexual men – because the macho is not required to be attractive to their mates as it is seemingly required for hetero men. Read any romance novel – sales of which top into the billions into any given year – and it explains a lot of the stereotype women secretly expect of men. My last girlfriend had literally boxes and boxes of romance novels in her closet and led to what I consider was ultimately the doom of our relationship. i’m not Fabio, I had too many opinions. *shrug* Plus maybe we just weren’t compatible :-). They have the same effect as watching too much mindless porno. Pretty soon all we see are sex object walking around – pure pleaseure walking around on two legs.

    I uess the gist here is that yes men have problems. We’ve always had problems, and we’ll likely keep on having societal problems under World War III kills us all. But my point is, that you women are NOT an invisible, trodden-down part of this society! You may not have things the way you want, but you are certainly not powerless by any means. The opinions you make, the things you say, the things you do, all have an impact on the other sex. We do not raid your homes with razor blades forcing you to shave your legs – just as there is no body wax team kicking in my front door to get that nasty hairy patch on my back. I choose not to wax, and I live with the consequences (cutting down about 75% of my feasible dating field).

    Make your decisions, stand by them, and help educate other WOMEN – because without a united front, without eliminating all of the barbie dolls – where do you think we’re going to go to get a woman’s opinion? Please don’t take this the wrong way, I’m an idiot, I know, but if I see a.) blonde waxed/shaved barbie doll asking me to come along and party, or b.) girl with hair sticking out of tank top and hair sticking out of bottom of trousers asking me to come to an anti-man rally, where do you think I’m going?

    You have to eliminate or educate these ” baby dolls ” – we can’t do it for you – so that women can finally truly unite as a sex and make some serious changes in the way we are behaving towards you. And that begins with killing all the barbie dolls :-). Good luck!!  (Quote)

  48. K on August 17th, 2006 11:49 am

    I’m not sure where to start, so many people have posted things I’d like to respond to. First, the men who feel as though there is as much pressure on them as there is on women in terms of beauty standards are truly out of their minds. Having many, many guy friends I am well aware of what their routines entail and it does not come close to my female friends. And that’s having fairly low maintenance female friends. In addition, the media is full of popular older, unattractive and chubby men – no so with women. Jack Black, almost any lead on current sitcoms – everybody loves raymond, king of queens, the world according to jim and who are their wivesattractive thin women. The reason you don’t see fat male porn is because you hardly see ANY porn made for women, not because women won’t date chubby men. Every day I see thin women dating chubby guys…I mean come on. And the obsession with hairlessness is not genetic, otherwise women would have been removing all this hair forever and it’s a pretty recent phenomenon.

    As for the most recent post – I’m sorry too that one area men are behaving more like women is with hair removal and beauty maintenance. However, I don’t know what kind of superficial women you are dating, but I’ve never encounted a women who would refuse to date a man based on some hair. Do I like a back covered in hair? No, it’s not my preference but it wouldn’t rule a guy out.

    Look we’re living in two different worlds with two very different realities. Ultimately, I don’t know what it’s like to be a man. So please, do not tell women that we don’t experience ENORMOUS amounts of pressure to be flawless from the media, from men, from other women, etc. And it is the single thing we’re judged on while men are also judged on intelligence and skill.  (Quote)

  49. Dave on August 23rd, 2006 8:02 pm

    All-in-all, I’m basically forced into spending anywhere from a MINIMUM of 10 extra hours a week in the gym, on a bike, or running, etc. Biking, minimum 1 hour, 4 times a week to keep the belly down. More as desired. (I have bad knees, two knee surgeries, so running or hiking or even walking are difficult on my body). This is to maintain. Losing weight requires more. I have an abnormal thyroid and I cannot live on salad as some people can. I get fatigued, headaches, etc etc. I require two square meals a day, meaning I will pan fry chicken, fish or other non-red meats, and I usually eat a sandwich or more carbs in the morning for breakfast. Don’t give me a diet speech please. My intake is anywhere from 2000-2,500 calories a day which yes I know, for weight loss, should be less. But one should be able to maintain, no? We are not always in a constant state of losing weight.

    Crunchers/situps/pushups in front of the TV, 15 minutes at a time minimum, 4 times a week, plus any other light floor excersizes/stretching, 1 hour total minimum. Circuit room and/or weightlifting, 3-4 times a week, minimum 1 hour including some light cardio. Rogaine for the balding hair on my head. Fake-n-bake tanning booth 3 times a week for 45 minutes total. Acne treatment 2-3 times a day. Must shave every day or acne develops horribly, must wash face 3 times a day or same.

    When I was in college and had a 6-pack (and still got the attention of the ladies – which I do not any more due to my aging factors such as gut, baldness, paleness from having an 8-5 job, etc. etc.) I hit the gym anywhere from 3-5 hours a day, playing basketball for hours, running several miles on top of that, as well as weightlifting. This was the most attention and dates I ever got from women. Since I have gained about 35 lbs. from college, I have not been on a SINGLE date in almost 2 years. Don’t give me a love speech, please. I’m just talking a casual date here and there, nada.

    We may not have to wear makeup, but I wish I could cram my ass in a little skirt to make myself look good, and throw on a little cover-up – rather than having to work my ass off at the gym 5-6 days a week.

    I have definitely noticed a difference since I let my vanity slip after leaving college and gaining some weight. Please, introduce me to the ‘skinny women’ dating ‘chubby guys’ because I’d love to meet one. I consider myself in good shape but just holding 35 lbs too man, chubby chubby, with strong legs and good cardio (I can go swimming hiking biking dancing and all the fun stuff), but I just don’t look like a GQ model without my shirt on, hair on back, receding hairline, adult acne, etc. I am working on all these things.

    Yes you should ‘love someone for who they are’ but it’s not a reality for men or women on either side of the fence in today’s “me me me” generation. People in their mid 20′s are a lot different than you folks in your 40′s or 50′s were when you were our age. The days of love and rock and roll are over – you’re talking about the Paris Hilton generation, and everyone is on the band wagon.

    I consider myself more mature, calm, and well-rounded than when I was in college running around getting drunk 4 times a week. I am only 25.

    I’m not denying women go through lots, and lots, and lots of crap on a daily basis nearly 24/7. But a lot of it is your decision to fit the main stream – the same as all my decisions I laid out in the above paragraphs. (continued)  (Quote)

  50. Dave on August 23rd, 2006 8:03 pm

    I CHOOSE to put myself through this to fit the social acceptance of the more popular beings of the female race. Yes, I’d like to meet a girl who is   (Quote)

  51. bridget on September 10th, 2006 11:36 pm

    Well people i guess i am born lucky. I am a rarity, my husband calls it peach fuzz.. have fine hair on my legs. never shave really.. only shave armpits and.. 37yrs old saved so much money i am told don’t need to wax, shaving creams.  (Quote)

  52. Craig on October 1st, 2006 9:19 pm

    I guess im pretty much of a rareity here i happen to adore a woman that doesn’t shave anything,the hairier the better.It kills me to see the social stigma associated with female body hair.If i tell anyone that i like my women hairy they look at me as if i came from another planet.I asked several women if they liked shaving and all said no,but when i asked them why don’t they stop they pretty much all said “gross”! Thank you society!  (Quote)

  53. someGirl on October 31st, 2006 5:11 pm

    I shave it all off for myself! not because of a man or society etc. I’m the only one who sees my private parts well until i get married and things won’t change then either.
    i do it for hygiene and cleanliness purposes and I don’t see how you can NOT shave your pubic and armpit hair. you get dirt and sweat stuck in the hair. most of all how do you deal with your periods if you don’t shave. naarsty!!

    lastly, it is disgusting to see WOMEN OR MEN with armpit hair wearing tank-tops in public. uuughh!
    this society needs higher standards lol  (Quote)

  54. Kar on November 7th, 2006 2:19 pm

    As soon as men, more than women, are mutilating their bodies with breast implants, lipo, botox, restilin, face lifts, ect. in order to conform to sociatal norms, then it is safe to say that the pressure is greater for women than men when it comes to physical appearances. Women have greater numbers of eating disorders and body dismorephic issues than men. In addition, whatever the root of our cultural norms, the fact is that the female body is idealized and sexualized leaving women all over the world vulnerable to rape, incest, human trafficing, opression, violence, ect. at the hands of men. We can argue about shaving legs for as long as we all like, but there are much greater atrocities that women are facing as we chat. To deny that there is sexual inequality in the world is to contribute to it and that is not a future I am committed to for my daughters and sons.

    Similarly, society dictates that men deny aspects of their personality in order to be “masculine.” There is pressure on men in different ways that contributes to emotional suppression, and great anxiety to perform in the different domains of their lives. The societal expectations of men leave them vulnerable to potentially becoming violent (both to the same and opposite sex), womanizers, workaholics, alcoholics, depressed, anxious, unfulfilled and unhappy.

    There is no right or wrong, good or bad party when it comes to the issues that women and men face together and separately. However, it is important to take responsibility for our part in keeping the problems in place. Questioning is great and being in action to make this world a better place for both sexes is wise and the right thing to do. We must start by looking at ourselves, become aware, and make a choice to have our actions cause no harm, intentionally or unintentionally.  (Quote)

  55. N-Dash on November 10th, 2006 6:23 am

    As a male I have to say I do feel some sympathy for women having to shave their legs. I personally have gone to growing a beard as shaving my face was too much trouble. I also think I look better with a beard as well, although I do trim it every week or two. It seems like shaved faces have become more popular for men in recent decades and I don’t really understand why. A lot of bald faced men would look more handsome and distinctive with beards in my opinion. On the other hand, maybe the ladies disagree?

    I feel kind of embarassed to admit it, but as a heterosexual man, I have shaved my legs in the past just to see how it would be. Maybe this is the other half of the equation because a woman with unshaved legs might be considered odd, but don’t the norms cut the opposite way as well? For example, with the exception of body builders and professional wrestlers, aren’t men with shaved legs and armpits looked at askance?

    Anyway, my experience shaving my legs was that it was utter hell. As a man I have quite a bit of hair on my legs, and it was difficult and very irritating to shave it off. After a single day my legs had the consistency of sharp sand paper. Male hair grows too fast for it to be practical to keep our legs shaved. I have to assume that things aren’t nearly as bad for most women, or shaving legs would never have caught on.

    This is also the reason I would never be willing to shave my pubic hair, as the result is the same. Hair grows back too quickly, and I am not going to shave on a daily basis. Not to mention, shaving your pubic area really does make you look like a prepubescant boy. I am really not down with women shaving their pubic are either, and if anything find it to be a turnoff, so you see not all of us men are attracted to the same thing.

    As I said, even shaving my face is too much trouble. But at the same time, I am OK with how I look, and if a sexual partner wanted me to shave, I would just refuse. That I think is the important thing, be comfortable with who you are and what you are willing to do. If people don’t like it that you don’t shave, then so be it. There are plenty of men out there who won’t mind, or might even like it.

    Anyway, there are worse things than being single. If the alternative is being with some air head who values you based on unimportant cosmetic crap, then you’re better off without them.  (Quote)

  56. Alex on December 21st, 2006 4:42 pm

    I have leg, chest, pubic and armpit hair. The latter two of which are kept trim. Anything else gets wacked or plucked. The face gets a 10 minute groom EVERY DAY! Even though I work 12 hours a day I still take to effort to remain hygenic. Lately I’ve started growing nose and ear hair too. Guess what? Those too get plucked and checked EVERY GD day. In the past I even shaved my legs for sports every other day so no women can tell me how much work it is and that it’s too much trouble.

    My GF tried playing that hippy no shave shit on me and the result was a refusal in sex. I just can’t imagine having sexual relations with an unkept hippy type person who feels like a guy and smells like a trash bin. That just says “caution LAZY person”.

    After a week of her not shaving I got a wiff of her armpit while in bed and literally had to sleep on the couch due to the fact it was such an offensive odor even though she had showered a day before.

    After no sex for well over six months she now shaves and keeps her self up just like she did before we were living together and she went on this fucked up hippy craze. They ‘the hippies’ really are a bunch of idiots anyways.  (Quote)

  57. Cynthia Bagley on August 24th, 2007 6:50 pm

    Terry,

    I see that you have a lot of comments on this one. I used to shave every day until I became ill. Then it was too much work.

    Now, I only shave (except for armpits because I do have an odor problem there) when I am going to wear a dress… And guess what… I don’t wear one very often.

    :-) Great post Cyn  (Quote)

  58. Cynthia Bagley on August 24th, 2007 6:53 pm

    Another interesting thought… I was on some really severe chemo for a long time (I am on a milder form now). During that time I had NO hair in my armpits, arms, and legs… even the pubic hair was gone.

    I also lost a lot on top of my head… Funny though I had hair on my face. It was not fun…

    Cyn  (Quote)

  59. Cynthia Bagley on August 24th, 2007 7:05 pm

    Just another thought for Dave. My husband is a hairy man. He even has a beard. I find it attractive.

    I really hate the new norms of hairless men.  (Quote)

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